true nothingness

[Vlitmer]

the philosophy of true nothingness fascinates me because, to me, it is one of the most inconceivable concepts for the human mind to grasp.

id bargain if you asked a random person on the street to imagine nothing they would think of an empty room, some might think of just a white or black space. but it's impossible to imagine nothing. nothing isn't white or black because you need colors, light and wavelengths for color to exist. not only that but an observer to confirm the existence of the colors. true nothingness is no colors, no light, no dark. it's nothing. and its truly inconceivable because every time someone tries to think of nothing, they inevitably end of thinking of something that encapsulates what they think nothing is rather than true nothingness.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this opinion of mine as well as anything you'd like to add.

 

[yuiluy]

Well i can't commentate on nothingness, as i feel you said pretty much all their was, but i heard people refer to very deep meditation as that feeling of nothingness, especially in buddhism. So if you feel like that topic interest you, you should try and get there, maybe you'll feel enlightened

 

[taschr]

There are formless realms in multiple meditation traditions that describe nothing. The seventh jhana is the realm of infinite nothingness, there is the Qabalistic Ain which is translated as nothingness, but neither of these are true nothingness. True nothingness implies a lack of an observer, these states are better described as no-thing-ness. When someone sits in the seventh jhana or contemplates the Ain, they've stripped away every object of awareness, but there is still the fact of bare witnessing happening.

The seventh jhana can go on to become further refined into the realm of neither perception nor non-perception, which is a very trippy state where even the very idea of knowing becomes difficult to pin down. But even here there's still something happening, some gossamer-thin thread of awareness that can't quite extinguish itself. This is at the edge of what consciousness can do, but you still haven't stepped off into actual oblivion or cessation of perception.

The only way to achieve true nothingness would be to not be there at all, which means it's not a state one can verify from the inside. The Buddhists have something close with nirodha samapatti, total cessation. Consciousness stops, mental formations stop, perception and feeling cease entirely. What the meditator experiences upon entering and leaving this state is a gap where they were present at the very moment of cessation and present again at the very moment of reawakening. The gap in the middle of true nothing is completely unknowable.

 

[HoldAll]

I think Nothingness is one of these topics that can only explored through experiential mysticism (by meditation, for example), not through conceptual thinking because otherwise you’ll end up with such nonsensical statements like „Das Nichts nichtet“ („The nothing nothings“ or „The nothing nihilates“) from Martin Heidegger’s famous lecture "What is Metaphysics?" I don’t the inquiring mind can ever be satisfied by conclusions arrieved at by language alone in these matters but will readily accept personal experiences.

 

[Sabbatius]

Space, without light- without stars, no gravity- no focus except the void you are inside, which is all of existence- and all that remains is you-just you.
Now, meditate on that.

 

[Beyond Everything]

It's like religious conceptions of god. Ultimately meaningless & without any real reference outside the simple semantic/visual categories of human primates.

 

[Shade]

I think Nothingness is one of these topics that can only explored through experiential mysticism (by meditation, for example), not through conceptual thinking because otherwise you’ll end up with such nonsensical statements like „Das Nichts nichtet“ („The nothing nothings“ or „The nothing nihilates“) from Martin Heidegger’s famous lecture "What is Metaphysics?" I don’t the inquiring mind can ever be satisfied by conclusions arrieved at by language alone in these matters but will readily accept personal experiences.

I would agree, it would be more of a void state of mind, that state being no thoughts in which anything to be created. I've had a void experience in which it was just pure bliss. it wasn't like gazing into blackness, its was a void, no abyss to go into and nothing to move away from. my thoughts that were racing first excited because iremember being in that space before, then it all came to a crawl and then there were no questions just a state of bliss which i cannot even begin to describe to do it justice. I experienced the opposite one time where it felt like i just winked out, no darkness, just time passed, when i came to from that experience i had a phobia of the night sky it took a while to overcome. which is kind of an oxymoron, you'd think being in a void would cause that bt it was just the winking out that caused it.

tldr: i think it would take a profound meditation experience or a nde to experience it and even then i think the second one i mentioned is closer to true nothingness. as the first was comforting and i didn't feel alone, it felt like there was a female presence there so it couldnt really be true nothingness except for the state of mind.

 

[SerpentBakery]

The concept of nothingness as you describe it is a little backwards and too literal, because there is no such thing as a truly empty void in creation. The closest you get to that is Apep (the most broken/incomplete geometry imaginable, literally just waste/a shadow of creation/distortion that can only exist by implication of duality requiring the distinction between "truth" and "not truth").

Even what the Buddhists describe is not "nothing" (as in literally "no thing"), but rather a collapse of all potentiality and manifestation into a single manifestation - at which point you're basically trying to visualize the Platonic "One"/Source, or the Void of Nu in Egyptian terms.

The void is in actuality the most fertile and complete thing in existence, because it is an ocean of endless possibility. That is why nothingness is serene and holy for Buddhists (in short...). In that regard, your best bet would probably be deciphering a frequency that is paradoxical but does not collapse, via meditation (possible, but hard to do for most), or "pure white light beyond physical light" (also done through meditation, again... hard to do, but possible with enough practice/understanding of reality). It's basically just the whole of reality, or the most we can see of it without burning our minds and dissolving by accident. Under this, even "no thoughts" basically means "you are turning your mind into pure potential, not pure manifestation of potential". A paradox, since potential also includes manifestation within it by implication, but the key is to hold the paradox as true simultaneously without collapsing it in your mind/perception. "Seeing without judgement", basically.

And, really, it is rather peaceful. Like a breath of fresh air, or a homecoming.

 

[Vlitmer]

The concept of nothingness as you describe it is a little backwards and too literal, because there is no such thing as a truly empty void in creation. The closest you get to that is Apep (the most broken/incomplete geometry imaginable, literally just waste/a shadow of creation/distortion that can only exist by implication of duality requiring the distinction between "truth" and "not truth").

Even what the Buddhists describe is not "nothing" (as in literally "no thing"), but rather a collapse of all potentiality and manifestation into a single manifestation - at which point you're basically trying to visualize the Platonic "One"/Source, or the Void of Nu in Egyptian terms.

The void is in actuality the most fertile and complete thing in existence, because it is an ocean of endless possibility. That is why nothingness is serene and holy for Buddhists (in short...). In that regard, your best bet would probably be deciphering a frequency that is paradoxical but does not collapse, via meditation (possible, but hard to do for most), or "pure white light beyond physical light" (also done through meditation, again... hard to do, but possible with enough practice/understanding of reality). It's basically just the whole of reality, or the most we can see of it without burning our minds and dissolving by accident. Under this, even "no thoughts" basically means "you are turning your mind into pure potential, not pure manifestation of potential". A paradox, since potential also includes manifestation within it by implication, but the key is to hold the paradox as true simultaneously without collapsing it in your mind/perception. "Seeing without judgement", basically.

And, really, it is rather peaceful. Like a breath of fresh air, or a homecoming.

this is very insightful where can I learn more about this Apep concept you spoke about? it sounds interesting.

 

[SerpentBakery]

this is very insightful where can I learn more about this Apep concept you spoke about? it sounds interesting.

Apep is basically the ancient Egyptian version of a "devil" if you want to use familiar terms... though not in the Christian sense. The weakest and least complete thing in existence that is essentially always throwing a tantrum and has to be speared back multiple times. I recommend you only learn about him from actual ancient Egyptian texts, as a lot of idiots basically make up stuff about him (people think he's like Lucifer - not even close, Apep doesn't even have a will of his own... he's just "blind and hungry" as the texts basically describe him).

That said, a collection of these writings which do feature Apep that I highly recommend is "The Ancient Egyptian Netherworld Books" by Darnell and Darnell. Excellent translations of some of the most significant/magically potent texts of Ancient Egypt, and pretty good for trying to map metaphysics onto myth too. If you want to map out Apep without bullshit, you read these basically. It features a lot of the struggle between Apep and Ra's solar barque/the Gods and their helpers in general (such as in the Book of Gates, Book of Caverns, The Books of The Creation of The Solar Disk, briefly in the Books of the Solar-Osirian Unity).

I've posted the Darnell and Darnell book in this thread just now if you want to have a wee look: Book – PDF - The Ancient Egyptian Netherworld Books - John Coleman Darnell and Colleen Manassa

 

[albie]

That's the quantum scientist view too. Personally I believe we came from nothing which is illogical but true. Which means madness created us. Controlled insanity is the way forward for mankind. I'm half way there.

 

[Shade]

That's the quantum scientist view too. Personally I believe we came from nothing which is illogical but true. Which means madness created us. Controlled insanity is the way forward for mankind. I'm half way there.

Greeks thought of this nothingness as Chaos incarnate the primordial being Nyx, but eqyptions say that the greeks are too young to remember the light that came before Nyx.

 

[deci belle]

Shade said: Greeks thought of this nothingness as Chaos incarnate the primordial being Nyx, but eqyptions say that the greeks are too young to remember the light that came before Nyx.

I say Chaos incarnate primordial being Nyx is a reference to the point of illumination hovering in the void of elemental space (Nothingness). Primordial Creation, yes, yet not quite created, albeit anticipating its (Creation's) organizational function (by its mystical symbolization). In terms of taoism's Tai Chi, this is called the "Liquid Pearl" a subsuming particulate constituting one's mystical vision of a volumetric mass in the form of a vortex. Padmasambhava's central Asian tradition refers to this elemental primordial organization as the Vortex, appearing in the void of Nothingness, which plays a fundamental role in that liturgy's mnemonic and talismanic device.

The light spoken of by the Egyptian (precedent to Nyx) is telling. The Egyptian intimates that the Greeks don't yet go back far enough in their description. The light spoken of by the Egyptianis as far as human spiritual potential can know, yet this light is beyond (before) the experience of primordial Chaos (Nyx). Experience of the light preceding the chaotic Vortex is the limit of the limitless (another ancient taoist term). There is always that which is beyond our ability to see (that is, to know by immediate nondiscursive experiential knowledge).

We can never know beyond this limit, in terms of the unapproachable source. Knowledge of this limit is evidence of one having really seen the nature of one's own mind right now, constituting a mystical vision alluding to Awareness' power, being one's true identity. But, even though it's you, you are not it.

In terms of being, seeing potential is knowledge; in terms of knowledge, being is potential; In terms of potential, knowledge is being. Knowledge is formless, void of psychological momentum, therefore transcendent activity based on such knowledge operates freely within karmic energy (because karma and potential are the same, in terms of reality). Our nonoriginated nature is undifferentiated, that is, unified. Such unity precedes "Chaos", owing to Nyx's organizational aspects of polarity and movement. Real knowledge empowering enlightening practice is modeled on the light preceding the primordial organization of Chaos (not deliberately, but naturally) therefore its actualization outside of time constitutes entry into inconceivability which obviates the matrix of Creation (karma) without harming its primordial organization of kinetic incrementality (time).

OP said: "…but it's impossible to imagine nothing…"

Traditions based on clarifying one's own mind right now to the point of all at once nonorigination in perpetuity, insist that imagination is surpassed in realizing boundless voidness in which nothing is itself absent, where reality pervades without beginning in stillness, timelessly on the verge of going into action without having ever moved. Even now, true awareness has never moved. Such true awareness is not bound by the psychological function of human mentality. Neither is it some other mind. Mind is one.

Seeing seeing in terms of the quality of awake is itself just such voidness, only empty of ideas of selfhood, in real time. In everyday ordinary situations, activating mind without dwelling on its contents and seeing through conditions without denying their characteristics is evidence of "turning the light around." We are inconceivable beings, in truth.

One's immediate identity is simply the quality of awake, selfless, nonoriginated. That's not philosophy, it's liberation.

Functioning thusly in the midst of everyday ordinary situations unbeknownst to anyone doesn't change anything, but that's the point of authentic practice; in seeing Change, one adapts to its changes without going along. The world flows along in terms of vicissitudes, yet, somehow, one's presence doesn't abandon situational evolution even though the situation's gravitas is moot in terms of oneself, according to the timing of each situation's critical junctures. Even should others cling, it is as if they have been flushed away powerlessly by their own psychological (karmic) momentum. Ordinary people who do not see potential do not know the meaning of such freedom within Creation.

The only reason I mention this with respect to the OP, is because the locus of attention relative to such nothingness reeks of potential that one can learn to rely on in order to adapt spiritually (nonpsychologically) within Creation's chaos of conditionality and thus transcend delusion by virtue of delusion's inherent nonoriginated essential nature (potential), while freely sharing oneself in the midst of rank dualistic realms, neither courting honor nor avoiding ignominy. Transcendence is an impersonal (selfless) relationship rooted in the utter vulnerability of inevitability.

Such activity is empty of one's own psychological momentum. This is called clarity. By clarity, one's influence is selfless, simply due to not actualizing psychological awareness; instead, one sees reality, which powers one's adaptivity to cyclical situations' inherent potential.

 

[albie]

Greeks thought of this nothingness as Chaos incarnate the primordial being Nyx, but eqyptions say that the greeks are too young to remember the light that came before Nyx.

What bright light shines beyond what vast object to create the shadow of space?

Great name btw. Have you read SHADE THE CHANGING MAN?

 

[deci belle]

Hi albie~ merciiiii

The light in terms of the Absolute (essential nature of reality) is not visible. There is no shadow via kinetic absence of light in terms of an object relative to projected light forming a penumbra. Particulate photons or wave referenced heat/illumination cannot "light" empty space. Such space in which lighting is possible is not empty space. Created space is not empty, so your depiction is understandable, just not applicable in this context.

What you might be wishing to reference is the image of the proto-creative aspect of chaos in the dimness of vast space having dimensionality. Though dimensionality is a characteristic of the organizational aspect of the Creative/chaos, and of the delusional/dual nature of karmic existence, the light in ultimate terms not only does not, nor has never fallen into the sphere of the Creative.

In terms of taoism's elemental description, the one is the absolute aspect, the two is the creative aspect, and the three is the realm of dimensionality, the so-called 10,000 things.

Remember that mystically visionary experience is precise in terms of its characteristics, simply because the light of such is by Mind alone. Visionary experience fueled by remnant psychological light of ego-conscious awareness is relative to the psychological apparatus of the being that is going to die. Such visionary experience is best "avoided" or at least discounted in its aftermath. Why? Visionary experience containing the light of conditioned consciousness is personally captivated and captivating relative to itself and only serves to bastion the illusion of a created thinker, knower, and liver of life (the person). This is what is to be refined (away) by authentic nonposychological (spiritual) practice in order to "clear the deck" for true reality to alight. Ego-consciousness and the Absolute are the same light, but both are termed extremes in terms of reality. As for the application of enlightenment by virtue of the true nature of delusion, this is a topic unto itself.

The vastness of proto-creational dimness where the point of illumination appears is seen after experiencing the light (of awareness in terms of Essence). So (perhaps) the Greek either discounted this stage in his description, or else missed out by virtue of his immature (young) vision of Essence— which is why the Egyptian has pointed it out. Perhaps the fact that the Greek did not personally experience the event seems to be the Egyptian's diplomatically veiled inference— not without its depreciating intent.

How else could one "miss out" on the light? It is necessary to FIRST see the light (knowledge of nonorigination), before experiencing the stage between nonorigination and one's common ordinary (created) existence.

As for the image of incarnate chaos (Nyx), the term "incarnate" denotes a living aspect. The vortex doing what it does is a pure functionality— it depicts, in essence, the totality of the knowing (and hypothetically knowable) universe floating (in virtual insignificance) in boundless, dimensionless space. The mystic image of chaos does not imply intent. Chaos in its mystically visionary context is not a "thing". Process is what is being introduced, as opposed to the all-at-once-in-perpetuity that characterizes the functional attribute of the Absolute. The experience of chaos in terms of its vortex comprised of liquid pearl in its cosmically blending enclosure seen literally in the form of a "pot" of sorts (it does look exactly like a common electric blender appliance from an overhead perspective) is witness to Creation's/Chaos' primordial organization.

The "liquid pearl" churning in subsumption per the vortex it is in itself the polar distinction (duality) woven into existential experience. It is neither good nor bad; there is no why. The taoist Tai Chi symbol illustrates such duality, movement, and in some depictions of the symbol where contrasting dots of white in black and vice-versa, chaos' aspect of total mass subsumption in perpetuity is divulged.

It must be stressed that such visionary depictions are a symbolic picture of reality— being their absolute value of representation.

It should be no mystery that all authentic spiritual (awareness focused) teaching traditions base their restorative protocols on the organizational aspect of chaos, in terms of simply dealing with what IS, as is. Unless one gains mastery of such proportions, arriving at a practical witness of its prototypical organization in order to fuse the two (back) into one, is sheer fantasy. Though experiencing the light firsthand is not merit-based, per se, one must have necessarily "cleared the deck" through an hygienically effective (authentic) nonpsychological practice for a long, long period of time. Ultimately, there is no doing. Fusion of elemental duality in mystical experience is in witnessing such alone. Enlightening activity in everyday ordinary situations is simply a matter of seeing alone (relative to potential); whereas ordinary people see relative to self and other.

In my experience, the point of illumination hovering in stillness in the dim vastness of space grew larger and larger as it seemed to approach ("my" perspective) until the image overtook the entire field of view. At such time I found myself back in bed. And that, was that.